According to pictures I see, hollow grinding affects the edge, please have a look at attached pictures. Hollow grinds always have a secondary bevel. Simple border stamping is fairly basic but that is the style of my knives so it seems to suit. The reason for this is that the length of the taper (to the cutting edge) on a thick blade is much longer than on a thin blade (assuming both are sharpened at the same angle). I also like a hollowground blade. By What it is: A flat grind is a single, symmetric V-bevel — the blade tapers from a particular height on the blade and ends at the cutting edge. That would not be a real problem as the swivel knife is used more on the edges and seldom all the way to the middle. Most likely it was a conversation between two flintknappers sitting around a cave—and the battle of which grind is the best rages on to this day. At least edge's width is affected. A straight, flat grind from the edge upwards. This is one of those things that comes down to personal preference and of all the various reasons told to me for its existence the most logical one I have ever heard is from Keith Seidel, "I also like a hollowground blade. Cuts the worst leather with ease in most instances. × This is how straight razors for shaving are ground. But is there a so-called best blade grin… )which I believe is what Bob is referring to. A flat grind can wedge apart the material it's cutting and prevent binding. The edges give the skater the ability to control the skates for turning, stopping, and starting. There isn't much need to belabor the basics. A Hollow Grind is found on a knife like the Buck Woodsman because it's ideal for skinning. This is characteristic of straight razors, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge, which requires stropping for maintenance. Interesting idea about holding knife that way, definitely have to try. However, many hollow grinds start below the spine and many flat grinds start at it. I'm guessing the benefit of a hollow grind done that way lies in other areas, such as sharpening (a bit less material to remove) and perhaps slightly less drag through the leather. Instead of straight edges like the flat grind or edges that bow inward, these ones actually curve outward in a convex fashion, resembling the likes of a clamshell. A hollow grind will self-jig the blade so that it is supported on the sharpening medium. I do not put a hollow grind on the sides of my blades as they are usually thin "Sheridan Style" blades that are normally at or under 1/16". A hollow grind automatically created a microbevel, which reduces the area to hone, making sharpening faster. Have several knives but my very most favorite is my SK-3 with a 1/4" angled blade. I'd agree with all the above. Actually this type of "hollow grind", being that it is perpendicular to the cutting edge, makes the two side bevels thinner in the middle where the concave grind is the deepest. Hollow & Flat Grinding. It really does not affect the cutting edge as the cutting edge is the point at which the two bevels intersect. This is where a hollow grind is preffered, if the blades are hollow, when they are pulled together, it will pull them flat, making sure wear is even and spread across the whole blade. It is basically what it sounds like. Display as a link instead, × However, when using the knife I find that I like to place the tip of my ring finger into the grind. It might be a mental crutch, I don't know....nor do I care, LOL! A flat grind that begins at the blade’s spine is called a “full flat grind”; a “saber grind” begins its bevel lower on the blade, and a Scandinavian (or “Scandi”) grind begins lower still. Double-bevel grind. Full Flat. In this photo you can see the difference in the length of the tapers on the two HG knives. Basically, blade grind refers to how the cross-section of the blade is shaped to produce the cutting edge. However, when using the knife I find that I like to place the tip of my ring finger into the grind. It requires stropping, which is fine, but the edge won’t last long. It could also cause irreparable damage to the edge. On a thick blade the HG just looks good and provides a nice little spot to place the tip of the finger. So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. This hollow grind makes it easier for the edges to bite into the ice. From what I've read, there is a strong financial aspect to the prevalence of hollow ground blades: they're cheaper to make. As far as overall strength of the blade is concerned, both hollow and flat grinds can either start at the spine or below it. And what the cases when using hollow blade should be preferred? The thin part of the blade created by the HG usually never comes in contact with the leather because only the tip of the blade is used. Question: Do you recommend a hollow grind or a flat grind for chisels and plane irons? easier and smoth pass of the scrolls? Wuertz Machine Works 24,330 views The flat grind is the simplest type of grind, but it comes in three main varieties. This allows the full flat grind to pass through materials with more ease than other grinds who slope non-linearly (hollow), or at steeper angles (sabre). If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. The type of grind on your knife has a considerable influence on how successful it will perform a certain task. A popular knife with a hollow grind is the Desert Warrior Kalashnikov. Without a secondary bevel, the edge on a hollow grind blade would be extremely fragile. The grind, of course, is what makes a knife sharp. So you can see that HG is really only effective on a thin blade with regard to cutting. Flat grind / Sabre / Scandi. Re: Hollow grind vs. flat or convex. For decades sharpening with grinders was the only option for woodworkers. In fact, the scandi grind knife will be stronger than a flat, hollow or convex grind if all three knives are made from the same profile dimensions. Leather Lady Productions all rights reserved © 2006-2020 The first is the Full Flat Grind. Upload or insert images from URL. Chisel: According to Knife Edge Grinds, a chisel grind has only a single edge angle. Part 1 - Duration: 7:58. But I do like a 12"or 14" hollow grind , but you do learn how to cut with a hollow ground blade and I like hollow ground knives. 2. By far most knives you come across have a flat grind. I have both. David Heim and Michael Dobsevage. So for all the coffee aficionados who argue that the basket geometry affects the taste – our data indicates that they are absolutely correct. I have a very thin Henley blade designed by Jim Jackson for finish cuts which is HG and the "grind" would contact the leather quickly in comparison to a thick blade (if I used it for that purpose, which I don't). The Flat grind is more work than a hollow or sabre grind because more material needs to be ground away in the process, but it leaves you with a blade that is stronger than a hollow grind, and a better cutter than a sabre grind. What it's good for: Whittling, woodworking, food preparation, general use. I'd have to agree with Joe about the flat grind being much more useful. Convex Grind – (AKA “axe grind” or “Hamaguir”) – As the name suggests, this is the opposite of the hollow grind. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. I do not put a hollow grind on the sides of my blades as they are usually thin "Sheridan Style" blades that are normally at or under 1/16". Mike, The hollow grind on bowl gouges is not necessarily the "preferred" grind, but it is the practical and expedient grind. A hollow swivel knife blade is never used deep enough in the leather for the hollow grind to be of any real benefit. I am going to jump right out in the beginning and offer this opinion, which is actually the fact: There is no advantage to flat ground knives or convex ground knives unless one is using the knife as a froe for riving planks or shakes from a block of a tree round. Cory, Very rarely will you see forged knives that were hollow grind, mostly people stick to Flat Grinding and more realistically Concave Grind. Paste as plain text instead, × There are a couple of exceptions of course, such as when cutting a straight line. Hollow grind with a 8" wheel cuts fast till you get the knife down into where The blade gets thick fast and then it will not cut very good. Re: Unsticking the apex: Full Flat Grind vs Sabre Hollow Grind January 16, 2017 09:13AM Admin Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 12,832 Table 1: Comparing brew bed shape and grind size. Slightly convex grinds are sturdier still, and hold an edge very well. With the exception of my SK3, all of my blades are hollow ground. Flat grinds are great for whittling and general use. It was about the best way I've seen to show people the difference between a hollow grind and a flat grind blade. Also, Please understand that I am presenting this for educational information purposes as requested by Knipper (see above) and not as a spam/ passive marketing attempt. Powered by Invision Community, Leather carver 37+ years; maker of the SK-3 Swivel Knife. Radius of Hollow or Hollow Grind. With CBN or diamond on the sides of the wheel I could sharpen a knife with an entirely flat bevel, but if the 8-inch wheel doesn't create much of hollow grind, then I could get by with the cheaper wheels. From the FWW Editors c) a hollow grind removes material from the flat grind -used when you don't need the strength of a flat grind and want to reduce weight and decrease wedging Now again point (b) is the critical one, you need to be clear what you are comparing and ensure that everything else is equal. One thing to keep in mind is that the hollow grind is a relatively recent invention, and it …   Pasted as rich text. The disadvantage of the vertical grind is that under heavy use and sharpening, the blade will wear away at the intersection of the vertical grind mark and the edge. The primary grind may be concave, flat, or convex. The hollow ground blades I've seen still have a flat bevel along the edge like the traditional flat grinds do. Bob Van Dkye. I prefer hollow ground blades over flat grinds but not for the reason you might think. (sorry for the poor photo quality!). Not for cornering, but for the ability to see wherethe cutting edge makes contact with the leather." Clear editor. This would also be true for the other personal preference reasons. I have a multitude of width blades. Using a "doubler plate" and "table saw analogy " to hollow grind a blade. So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. If a 30 degree edge isn't fragile on a flat or hollow grind, then it isn't going to be fragile on a scandi made from the same metal. Paul, I agree that the logic would suggest that a thicker blade would benefit more than a thin blade from hollow grinding. This would also be true for the other personal preference reasons. Suicide, January 18, 2012 in Leather Tools. Harry Re: Flat Grind vs. What it is: A double-bevel grind, also known as a "compound grind," can, in overall profile, incorporate virtually any other grind -- flat, hollow, convex -- with the addition of a secondary V-bevel to produce a cutting edge. I have both "styles" of blade and don't see a difference. Hollow grind — a knife blade ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge. Flat grind. The result is a very sharp but weak edge. Consider that a 10" diameter bowl turning at, say, 500 rpm has a surface speed of about 1,300 feet per minute. The other exception might be where a very thin blade is used on heavy skirting leather and the tooler is cutting very deep. The 1/4" tapered blade is twice as thick as the 3/8" staight blade. The grind of a blade is where a key battle is won, and blade geometry varies widely. I don't make swivel knife blades, but I was always curious about the "hollow grind" designation. This type of hollow grind can be done on most blades down to about .030" or .70mm thick, at which point the blade is too thin to grind much more. The truth about hollow grinding Hollow Ground Blades Versus Flat Or Convex Blades! Flat grinds are sturdier, and simple to sharpen on basic equipment. In this video knife maker Walter Sorrells explains the difference between various types of knife blade geometries. If this blade is flat, the pressure will be concentrated in the middle and therefore the blades may blunt quicker. Hollow Grinding itself is more of a extreme sharp for straight razors and fine work but the edge is not strong compared to Concave. Spyderco Counterfeits, Clones, Replicas, etc. The flat grind is the simplest grind pattern for any knife. etc)? Illustration by James Provost If you sharpen a chisel against the edge of a rotating wheel on a bench grinder, the resulting surface will take on a concave shape – referred to as hollow ground. (me!). Full Flat Grind. The flat grind’s primary bevel slopes linearly and slowly. A full flat grind will (typically) be stronger than a hollow grind, and cut better than the sabre grind. With a hollow grind, there's generally less steel directly behind the edge, which can make it more prone to chipping. The founder and director of the Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking answers questions from readers about keeping hand-tool blades sharp–with demonstrations and explanations of time-saving techniques.. The modern tactical and bushcraftmovements have brought heated debates on which grind is the best. Many custom knifemakers also favour a hollow grind, partially due to its ability to achieve a sharp edge. Help educate an ignorant enthusiast! We observe a similar result for flat vs. cone using the finer grind, with 23 out of 25 identifying the right cup (and a p-value of 0.024). It's a comfortable spot which gives me a little bit of control when using the knife. Knifemaking, Gunsmithing, Machining, Sharpening, Leather Lady Productions all rights reserved © 2006-2020, Marketplace and Adult Area Moderator & Sewing Machine Expert. They are both sharpened at the same angle. Thank you for taking the time to read my posting and stay SHARP. Consequently one would have to push a thick blade much deeper into the leather in order for the grind to make contact. There are many kinds of grinds out there, including the hollow grind, full flat grind, chisel grind, sabre grind, convex grind, and scandi grind.   Your link has been automatically embedded. Concave, or hollow, grinds are quick to sharpen, but delicate. Dang, beat me to it! CBN wheels that do not include the CBN coating on the side of the wheel are a third of the cost of the ones that have this option. I'm under the impression that when swivel knives are used, the entire flat portion of the edge is not put onto the leather, but rather the blade is tilted a bit, having the effect of cutting with the corner of the blade. × What the advantage of using the hollow ground swivel knife's blade vs flat one (neat cut ends? The grind could reach to halfway up the blade, a sabre grind, but also up to the spine, which is when we refer to it as a full flat grind. 4 hours ago, Joshua States said: Doing a little border tooling I see. Postby aero_student » Thu Jul 05, 2001 12:00 am, Postby cerulean » Fri Jul 06, 2001 6:37 am, Postby Joe Talmadge » Fri Jul 06, 2001 7:26 am, Postby Tightwad » Sat Jul 07, 2001 12:41 pm, Postby The Stare » Sat Jul 07, 2001 4:35 pm, Users browsing this forum: D-Wade, elena86, eRoc, MFlovejp, nerdlock, petey, RamZar, rcwill98, The Meat man, TkoK83Spy, Wartstein and 56 guests. ; Flat grind — The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. Of course, all of these types of edges come with their own unique features, but in this piece, we’re going to take a more detailed look at a hollow grind. Not for cornering, but for the ability to see wherethe cutting edge makes contact with the leather." But for the most part, the HG does not aid in making the cut.   You cannot paste images directly. Hollow Grind [ Re: Mathsr ] #5883488 12/05/11 This type of hollow grind can be done on most blades down to about .030" or .70mm thick, at which point the blade is too thin to grind much more. Looks nice Garry Just on some of the less ordinary ones Joshua. In that instance the blade is laid flat in an effort to get as much blade as possible in the leather which helps to prevent wandering. I haven't used one that much yet, but I guess it is possible. I just thought hollow ground may give sort of benefits while carving sharp/small radius curves and scrolls. Terry, that is what I was trying to say. In reality the opposite is true. Thanks, Bob! Just my wild guess. And I think we all agree.....that is probably the only real benefit for any HG blade. I like hollow ground blades. Pablo (Paul Zalesak) might have some good input on this, since he makes some beautiful swivel knives... Paul, do you notice any difference in making the cut with one or the other? I prefer hollow ground blades over flat grinds but not for the reason you might think. While I own many knives. For the ones I've seen, the 'hollow' is actually ground perpendicular to the edge, as opposed to parallel with it, as in a hunting knife. Kind of a jack of all trades, if you will. Practically all normal kitchen knives have this type of grind. The hollow grind is ideal for cutting soft tissue, which is why it is found on skinners and scapels. So by following this logic the thicker the blade the better advantage it has...the thinner the blade the less advantage it has. A hollow swivel knife blade is never used deep enough in the leather for the hollow grind to be of any real benefit. Who knows when the first argument over the best blade grind started? Your plane irons and such take how long to plane 1,300 feet? When skates are sharpened, they are hollow ground creating a concave surface with two distinct edges. I would think that if the whole blade surface was presented into the leather, the leading edge tip would tend to get hung up.   Your previous content has been restored. )which I believe is what Bob is referring to. You can post now and register later. Attempting a specific job with the wrong grind on your blade will make that job much more difficult. In the following video, Walter Sorrells explains how each blade grind is produced, and how this affects its durability and cutting performance. Hollow grind: The blade is ground to create a concave, beveled cutting edge. The Full Flat Grind begins tapering to the edge from the spine evenly on both sides. A flat grind is what you typically see in knives, and is my personal favorite way to make them since it allows for easy sharpening. Flat grinds are predominantly for those that (a) do not use a grinder at all, or (b) are intending to use a honing guide. It helps then if you have at least a fundamental understanding of blade grin… The advantage of putting vertical hollow grind marks on a blade seems to be more culinary, where the knife blade will release the food better when it has those vertical grinds. I use the hollow ground very seldom it seems.
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